Follow-up Questions

Today I will be posting some questions which my last blog post prompted. They come from my friend, Greg. We go to church together and have talked about DMM on multiple occasions. Greg has some concerns about aspects of DMM and I appreciate him and his heart for truth and making disciples. He posted the following questions on my Facebook wall, where I had shared a link to my previous blog article, https://dmmcoach.com/2021/09/09/what-about-the-other-gifts/. If you have not read that article, yet, Greg’s questions will be more meaningful if you read it first.

Thanks, John. Various questions arise. We can talk in person if commenting becomes ponderous.

1. Do you think Paul has clearly delimited distinctive roles in mind here? Relatedly, do you think this is a comprehensive Pauline account of leadership gifts/roles?These are general questions about what you think Paul is doing in this text, the answers to which will, I assume, relate to the way you are using the text to answer your DMM-specific question. Watson’s reduction to two categories at the end of the post seems to indicate that you take Paul’s categories to be sort of broad strokes that get at tendencies. Is that fair?

2. My second question, regarding the evangelist, is threefold.

(A.) I’m having trouble distinguishing it from your account of the apostle. “Apostolic workers are those who intentionally go to new places,” and evangelists are “able to cross many cultural barriers” and “intentionally bring good news into dark places.” Both seem to be about “going.” Is it that you see evangelists as a subset of apostolic goers who specifically cross cultural barriers?

(B.) I’m curious where you derive the cross-cultural component of the evangelist from. Obviously, one needn’t cross cultures to bring good news into dark places. But more the point, what about Paul’s claim suggests crossing cultures is a specific feature of this gift?

(C.) The phrase I’m struggling most with (as you’ll have guessed) is “without requiring specialized training.” As with the cross-cultural dimension of your definition, I’m wondering where this assertion comes from. It seems to me that, on the one hand, this is a claim that you (i.e., those who understand “gifts” this way) would be interested in appending to each of the gifts. Because it is a gift (and not an accomplishment of “training works”?), the apostle’s ability to be apostolic requires no training, and so on. On the other hand, it seems to me that this is a commitment DMMers are bringing to the text, which makes no claims about the means through which God bestows gifts. Isn’t it the case that DMM is already committed methodologically to leaders not needing specialized training? If so, does that lead you to find an affirmation of that presupposition in the definition of gifting?

Finally, I’m wondering what specialized training includes, given that the training (equipping) of the church is in view in this text. If we assume that being gifted definitionally entails no specialized training, then once the gifted train the church for service, can those so trained “become” gifted, or does being trained rule that out? Or is it just that such training is not “specialized”? Or perhaps the training—say, for crossing cultures—is simply irrelevant to the question of being gifted, so that those trained by the gifted may be equipped for service, but whether they’re gifted for it is another matter altogether?

More than enough for one comment. 😬 I look forward to the dialogue.

[NOTE: I use social media (Facebook and Twitter) as a place to post invitations for deeper conversations. I prefer having those deeper conversations in person, or here on my blog. Others do not agree that this is best, but it is my choice to this point in time. I do this because I want my deeper conversations to be with people who want to converse. I do not like the “drive-by shootings” which often happen on social media. I want a real dialogue. I plan to respond to each of Greg’s questions here in future posts. I shared that with him and will post my responses here. Due to some travels I may not make my usual Tuesday and Thursday morning times, but will try to stay regular in my responses. After I finish with those I will return to the list of questions which arose earlier this year at the Salt & Light Conference.]

What about the other Gifts?

Original Question: “Where does the movement model make room for pastor, teacher, prophet etc.?”

Answer: Many questions like this arise when leaders of individual churches and/or networks of churches start exploring Disciple Making Movements strategies. The assumption is that DMMs are only focused on the apostolic and evangelistic giftings, while Paul clearly identifies additional giftings.

Here is the actual biblical text which is being alluded to in this question:

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. (Ephesians 4:11-15).

To me, this immediate context makes it is clear that Paul is thinking about the Church Universal, rather than a single congregation in a particular location because of his use of the phrase “the body of Christ” and “attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” For the majority of his ministry, Paul has not labored in the areas where others of the Apostles lived and worked. He spent some time in Jerusalem during his early days as a believer when Barnabas vouched for him. Later he joins them in the discussion about acceptance of the Gentiles into the Kingdom, but by and large Paul’s intentional strategy was to go to unreached and unengaged regions where the Gospel had not yet been heard.

The word “apostle” is an English form of the Greek word “apostolos” which was used for anyone sent out as an emissary. In the Great Commission Jesus directs the 11 to “Go make disciples” in the whole world. Paul is later added to their number and we actually know more details about his going than we do the 11, because of Luke’s presence on Paul’s apostolic team going on mission with Jesus. Apostolic workers are those who intentionally go to new places, where the Gospel has not been heard prior to their arrival.

The word “prophet” clearly carries great significance in Paul’s first letter to the church in Corinth. Seeking that gift is proposed by Paul as a corrective for some of the problems which arose in that specific church. Prophecy gives divine insight and confirmation. There can be predictive elements as is seen when an upcoming famine is revealed ahead of time by Agabus. (Acts 11:28). This foreknowledge empowers believers to prepare ahead of time to assist those who will be most negatively anticipated (much like happened through Joseph in Egypt). Prophecy is not restricted to a single located congregation, though.

“Evangelist” is one of these functions which many recognize fits well into the Disciple Making Movement rubric. Someone who has this divine gifting is able to cross many cultural barriers without requiring specialized training. But many believers are not this way. They need help in recognizing the differences which make so much of an impact that shifts in tactics are required. Those who intentionally bring good news into dark places are seeking to be evangelistic.

“Pastor-teachers” seems to me to be the best translation of the next category in Ephesians 4, because of the way Paul’s Greek is written here in this text. There is a phrase which is duplicated multiple times earlier, but is noticeably absent between pastor and teacher. Paul writes of Jesus, “he gave some to be…” four times, not five. Jesus gave some to be apostles, gave some to be prophets, gave some to be evangelists, gave some to be pastors and teachers.

In many traditional church networks the pastoral/teaching role is almost exclusively present. Because it is so significant, the efforts to counter-balance this extreme are heard as denigrating this function. I remember David Watson encouraging a large group he was training in California, “In every group gathered to be shaped by God’s Word, look for two types of leaders in the household–apostolic/evangelist types who live to see the word go to other villages where it has not gone yet and also those with the pastoral/teacher hearts that are necessary to nurture the ongoing spiritual life of an emerging local church.

With these thoughts in mind, explore what God does in Antioch of Syria. Read Acts 13:1ff and see that you have both emphases. Early training in DMM always focuses on vision casting for going, but if there is to be fruit, much fruit and fruit that lasts (John 15), then it requires a both/and, rather than an either/or.

Q&A: Do You Recommend “Pitching” the Text?

Original Questions:

What do you think about the general idea of using these kinds of passages (like the Sermon on the Mount) with Discovery? I know that narratives tend to work better than teaching blocks, but I have a preference for reading through blocks of text, in order to model what we expect people to be doing on their own, and learning to listen to God through all of the Bible.

Also, in the light of this list, how do you recommend “pitching” the text? Reading the titles (and those on your bookmarks), I realize that our general approach is just to introduce the text as “the next one to read”. We don’t ordinarily put a title on it. Probably because we want to encourage people to hear God speak through the text, without being prescriptive! But looking over the list, I wonder whether it is better, particularly in a church setting, to “orientate” the work that we’re doing. What do you think about this?

My Reply:

I did my Masters thesis on Matthew’s Gospel, so it holds a special place in my heart and mind. In church settings it is appropriate to go deeper, I believe. Jesus certainly gives his disciples “insider” information when they asked. If we want to transition from a consumer mindset, though, we must maintain some strong inductive rhythms. 


“Pitching” the text gives a group a heads up that we are hoping to mine it for certain insights. The whole series I sent you is certainly “pitched” as it explores the first Gospel looking for Jesus teaching and modeling of Kingdom definitions and callings for leadership. 

One of the unique characteristics of Matthew’s Gospel (compared the Mark, Luke and John) are the five large teaching blocks. Interestingly, in the first Gospel Jesus is said to have a threefold ministry (proclamation of the kingdom, teaching and healing). When he commissioned the 12 and sent them out (chapter 10), he empowers them to do two of the three. The one which is withheld for Jesus is teaching. Some commentators believe Matthew did this to parallel Jesus with Moses and the Pentateuch. I think that usually gets overworked. But Matthew contains that interesting directive:

““But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Everyone is discipled to the same Rabbi because we all have the same Teacher. His name is Jesus. Actually, the Great Commission is the only place in the first Gospel where the disciples are to teach and then, we teach people to obey all of Jesus’ commandments. 


Clearly other biblical books present the idea and importance of many of God’s people functioning as teachers. This is part of the spiritually empowered ministry in Ephesians 4. But Matthew emphasizes there is One Supreme Teacher. The rest of us are focused on getting others to listen to and obey Jesus. When you call the church to the Sermon on the Mount, it is appropriate to consider, weigh and explore who we are listening to and what his desired outcomes are as we explore. 


While we call it the “Sermon on the Mount,” Matthew actually tags it as teaching his disciples (Matthew 5:1-2). Much is made of the crowd, because we call it a sermon, but the first Gospel makes more of this being a setting where he is teaching his disciples and the crowds overhear. What does following Jesus look like? What should it look like? Jesus casts a kingdom vision in these three chapters which are very challenging and counter cultural. 


As long as the “pitch” is true to the context, I am okay with it, personally. I do much less of it with lost people. 

Q&A: Why Start There?

Q&A: “Most of the Scriptures used are in the Synoptic Gospels. Can you show how this is worked out in the ministry of Paul? There seem to be some differences. Explain?“

Discovery is more easily accomplished by the use of narrative (story based) sections of the Bible. Do you remember the interaction between Phillip and Jesus? Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” (John 14:8-9) Since watching Jesus is the best way to see God the Father the Gospels are foundational resources.

Evangelicalism has made much of the Pauline corpus, and rightly so. But, there are times we make this material oppositional to the Gospels, and that is not good. Having a good understanding of the differences between these two genres and their functional roles is important.

Disciple Making Movements are focused on getting the Good News of Jesus planted into families–especially families who have little or no access to the Bible. These are folks who have almost no knowledge of Jesus. As a result, we believe they should spend lots of their initial time in the Bible discovering what is revealed about Jesus. The Son of God is the only one who ever said that as he is lifted up he will draw people to the Father.

When you read through Acts, and pay close attention to what Paul writes in his letters about his early days in a new city, it is obvious that he also made much of the Gospel. Consider, for example, his comments about coming to Corinth: “And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified“ (1 Corinthians 2:1-2).

Many of the questions and objections we encounter arise from the difference between starting towards faith and efforts to ground and mature those who are already believers. Are you reaching out to lost people? If so, we recommend spending lots of time in the Gospels. As they come to faith and simple churches emerge, there will be plenty of time to spend time with the letters written to churches.

Question # 8: Serve?

“How can we help with one of the challenges shared earlier during Question # 2?” guides the group into meeting a need each week. It disciples them towards ministering to the challenges in the group, their families or their neighborhood.

Some DMM coaches make this question a follow-up to number 2, so they only have seven questions. I kept it separate and wanted all three of the obedience questions to come after the passage is explored. We need to hear from God before we go off doing things to make sure we are not operating in our own wisdom.

Often when groups are not family or friends they do not live near enough to each other to easily do this as a group. This makes Question 8 a bit challenging for many in the Global North. Some drop it. Others change it to praying for one of the challenges shared earlier in the Discovery Group time. My preference is we keep it as is and coach the group towards more creative ministry options.

I am writing this blog post on my phone while riding to Tallahassee, Florida. Debra (my wife) is driving at this moment. I am using my two thumbs to type it into the WordPress app. What if we used our phones to help with a challenge someone shared?

Often challenges deal with the need for encouragement. Can you encourage someone with a text message? What if you commit to send a favorite Bible promise to someone who is struggling with depression? Do you think that might bolster her spirits? What else could you do? What else could several people do for one of the group members?

Question # 7: Who?

“Who do you know who needs this message that you will tell this week?” is a powerful seed for multiplication. This is only true when Discovery Groups will name names and then share with those named.

Tragically, many self-identified Christians do not like answering this question. Even fewer follow through with sharing with the people who come to mind. If you are not getting new generations of Discovery Groups, you can be sure Question # 7 has been dropped or altered.

If your Christian group experiments with using a Discovery process pay special attention to their responses to this question. If they do not know any lost people who need to hear God’s Word, then they need to get out more (in person and/or online. They need to become active listeners. And they need to become better at intercession—pleading God’s promises for the people where they live, learn, work and play.

Who are the people who walk regularly in your neighborhood? Could you ask them to join in their walks? Get to know them. Talk about casual topics. Explore a meaningful topic. If they are comfortable with that shift, try a spiritual theme. If they say they are a believer, “already have a home church,” or signal they follow Jesus, then tell them you want to find lost people in the neighborhood. Ask if they will help. Invite them to join you in prayer walking while you exercise.

If they are not willing to talk about spiritual matters, then you need to begin praying that the Holy Spirit will produce and opening. Get their names. Mobilize others from your home church, small group and/or disciple making team to start praying for them. It is possible they are believers who have been wounded by other people at their last church, or they may not know Jesus at all. Keep walking. Keep developing a relationship and revisit the importance of spiritual matters.

Whenever someone is open to spiritual topics ask if he is interested in reading the Bible to see what God is really like. If she is willing to do that, then ask if she has family or friends who might be willing to join in, also. Start a new Discovery Group with this person and his family/friends. They will be prompted to share the passages they explore with others, too.

Question # 6: Obey?

After listening closely to the passage, discussing some of what it reveals about God’s character, desires, plans and purposes and then thinking about the people in the story and ourselves, it is time to identify how we plan to respond to the passage personally. Highly collectivistic people groups may find it better to come up with a “We will…” Statement rather than an “I will…” Statement. Question 6 probes our intentionality to act on something we have heard from God.

“How will you put this passage into practice?” calls participants to application. It urges us to do more than acquire mental information, it calls for practice.

Jesus warned the audience for his “Sermon on the Mount” that to listen to his teaching and not actually doing it was an exercise in folly. Hearing Jesus and doing what he is calling us to do is foundational to withstanding the storms of life and not finding our lives collapsing around us.

Over time I work to coach group participants to develop S.M.A.R.T. “I will…” Statements. These will be Specific, Measurable, Action-oriented, Realistic and Time-bound. Such coaching is intended to be a guard against disobeying through vagaries–ducking true accountability by not really making a commitment.

Modelling good “I will…” Statements and then actually working on doing them can lead a group to really opening their hearts to God’s Word and the transformation work of the Holy Spirit. You get to show the slacker a new way forward. If you allow their unwillingness to obey to drag you down, you miss an opportunity to show transformation. A good friend used to say, “If we keep doing what we’ve always done we will always get what we’ve always gotten.” If we want new outcomes, we must change our actions. Answering Question # 6 opens the door for new actions.

Question 3: Accountable?

“How did you obey, share and meet the need from last week’s meeting?” invites participants to become mutually accountable to the other participants. This is woefully missing from traditional church gatherings (large proclamation settings, mid-sized and small group settings, also). We do not give one another true permission to ask, “Did you obey what you heard God say?”

Many people shy away from this kind of mutual accountability out of fear. They have personally been abused by a domineering leader, or know someone else who has. This fear produces an internal resistance to sharing an “I will…” Statement and nurtures resisting follow through if one has been given.

Each Discovery setting gives participants three ways to actually take meaningful actions in response to God’s word. Questions 6, 7 and 8 lead to an obedience pledge, the name of someone who needs to hear this story from the Bible and a challenge which the group can help overcome. Acting on any/all of these opens the active participants heart to walk out faith acts in response to the Holy Spirit. For example, we believe God often prepares Persons of Peace before the disciple maker ever meets with them. What if the Holy Spirit brings the person to mind for you to share with because he knows that person is ready for this word? Do we really believe God works in our hearts and minds when we open ourselves to him?

When participants attempt to obey, share and/or serve they may encounter resistance for which they are not prepared. Allowing them an opportunity to debrief what happened gives them the chance to be blessed by the group. We gain the privilege of “bearing one another’s burdens.” Maybe her heart was so sad because her sister rejected the story. Now the group can begin to pray that her sister’s heart will be changed.

No one is expecting perfection from these questions or the experiences they produce. We are coaching toward learning opportunities. Just like a soccer coach is not expecting perfection in dribbling drills, we know that the more practice people have in listening to God’s Word and then attempting to apply it, the better our obedience grows. Having a group who are cheering on our efforts builds us up to try harder the next time and eventually experience breakthroughs. Question 3 provides beautiful examples of testimony when God blesses our growing efforts. We are encouraged and others get to experience encouragement, too.

When you drop Question 3 it is a solid indicator that you are dropping Questions 6, 7 and 8. What you have then is not a Discovery Group, it is just a fellowship group with a weak Bible study. Please do not call that a Discovery Group because you have cut the heart out.

Question 4: God?

Of all the questions, this is the most impactful (in my studied opinion)! You will not praise him or plead his promises (intercede) if you do not know him and trust him. You will not dare to see yourself in the story if you don’t rely on him to change you. You will not hear his call to obedience if you disbelieve. You will not share if you have no hope. Your only motivation for ministering to others will be your anticipation that they will reciprocate.

Faith in God changes things. Faith in God changes you. Faith in God changes me.

Some call the usual Scripture set “Creation to Christ.” I call it “Discovering God.” That is our great need.

It is not that God is lost and needs to be found. No, we are lost and finding him gives our lives true meaning.

Asking, “What do we learn about God?” opens a Discovery Group up to focusing on the one character who appears in every story contained in the the Bible. While the next question helps us find ourselves, too, we quickly learn he is the main character. The Bible is ultimately about him.

Our lives have true meaning when lived in relationship with our Creator. Seeing how Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father opens our hearts to the realization that he shows us God’s heart most clearly.

Many do not have first-hand experience hearing what the Bible actually reveals about God. Getting their “fingerprints on the Bible” exposes them to God’s heart.

As a young man, who came from thirteen generations of Buddhists (that they could count), read the passages from Genesis trust began to grow. He referred to God as “the One above all.” He declared, “This answers the questions I have been asking since I was a young boy!”

Question # 4 is the heart and soul of a Discovery Bible Study. I encourage you to ask and answer that question every time you read from the Bible!

Question 2: Challenges?

“What challenges do you see in your life, family or world?” gives permission to the household of peace and/or friendship group to share with one another the difficulties each one is facing. While a family or group of friends may already know many of these challenges, picking one to share reveals what is weighing on the heart of each participant. “What matters enough to you that you will bring it to the group?” is a significant insight.

Most mornings I send out a text message to ten different groups or individuals. It usually contains one or two verses and an observation or question based on them. I started doing that practice more than eight years ago because of a challenge shared in a group experiencing Discovery for the first time. One lady shared, “I need a new job. No, I actually need a better attitude about my job until I get a new one.” She opened her heart to the seven of us who were gathered.

Question 2 provides a disciple maker a great intercession list. Outside of the group you can and should pray fervently about each challenge which is shared. Whenever God chooses to give a breakthrough it will capture the attention of at least some of the group members. In West Africa there is a disciple making family who were having trouble with their air conditioner in an extremely hot, dry season. Through overt spiritual conversations with the HVAC repairman they found he was spiritually open to Discovery. Once a Discovery Group began at his compound, they discovered the water piped into the neighborhood had not flown in over a year. When it started again (but not for any of their neighbors) this produced ongoing conversations.

Question 8 is going to be a follow-up to Question 2. As a result other trainers only have 7 questions because they make it 7b. I chose to keep all three action nurturing questions at the end of the study so responses will possibly be shaped by what God says through the passage. Making notes of the responses to # 2 is important because Question 8 will be a bit later in the process.

I do not get upset when the response to a challenge happens early, but now you know my rationale. The reality is you can facilitate a Discovery however you please. But if you make changes, please do so prayerfully and with the recognition that your alterations may have unintended consequences. If you get less fruitful responses, it is at least possible that is because you have removed something which was more significant than you realized.